quote:

---

Originally posted by Allyson:
Getting back to the multi-cultural relationships theme... A lot of times culture is used as an excuse for rude behavior. Common courtesy should be mandatory!

---

Now this is a perfect opportunity to focus on just how different cultures may be. There are SO MANY similar examples of "mandatory" standards and courtesies that we subscribe to here in the states or rather the greater "civilized" european world that simply are not so mandatory across the world...or greater earth. I don't know where this person was from, but there couldn't be a better example of how right some wrong things are and vice versa.
Again, some of the members may know what I'm getting at here, but I'm sure only a few. It ain't easy stuff, and perhaps thats why change takes so long...
Effie and I finally had a chance to eat at a fine dining restaurant around the corner yesterday evening. It was my kind of food... robust, heart all american cuisine! I even commented that I'd be back often. Naturally when Effie commented that our "server" didn't seem so happy to be serving us, I shrugged it off as misperception. Later on, just before receiving our meal, the couple next to us was greeted and presented with the specials in grand detail. As the server jovially went down the list Effie looked at me and I at her in an attempt to comfort; she had never offered us any specials... But ok, no big deal. Perhaps she "forgot" or... I don't know. Anything could have happened. Nonetheless, I told Effie I'd mention it and guage her reaction.
When the server cam back with our main courses I stated, "By the way, I don't think you mentioned your specials. Are there any this evening"? I kid you not....INSTANTLY her hands began to tremble and this woman was immediately unable to look me in the eyes...she was guilty by far. She said, "Oh, I didn't? I'm sorry. It's just a 21 ounce strip steak." WHAT??? I'd just heard the special's and they weren't a 21 ounce steak.
I stated, "Just a 21 ounce steak"? She replied after glancing at the other table, "Oh and a sturgeon." After she left I called her back immediately and requested our meal be wrapped and we quickly paid and left, not before complaining to the maitre d' who was floored with disbelief of our honest acount.

Okay! So I just told that story to, perhaps, support Allyson's statements that a lot of times culture is used as an excuse for rude behavior. Common courtesy should be mandatory yet so often is not the case for so many of us in our own cultures. Someone above mentioned that their friends were made to feel uncomfortable around their mother in law, and another mentioned that her nephews girlfriend was made to feel unwelcome around his elders, and another...etcetera. To offer some perspective, the Ethiopian culture is far different. I've only just gotten used to the fact that anytime you enter an Ethiopian household you are asked, to exhaustion, if you'd like anything to eat...maybe some fresh brewed coffee (which take 30 minutes to roast and brew manually). The number 1 goal of that household is to be as hospitable as possible...under any set of circumstances.

Thats an example of a cultural tradition which is far more prevalent across the world than, let's say, the notion of "Queuing" and similar common courtesies across the "greater" civilized 1st world. I can recall asking Effie why so many things would happen in Africa. Why are the governments so corrupt? I think I even questioned the uprising of native people's of Zimbabwe to reclaim their homes and land from fairly recent settlers. How can a parent treat their child in such a manner? Why this and that? She had some great responses I was not prepared for...

She helped me see that Africa was a place where a person's pride preceeds their consciousness in a way...where it is innate yet unspoken. Apparently we, here in the states, are often laughed upon for our feelings of patriotic this and that, not to mention our passion for "freedom" when that exists all around the world. There are many of us who may be proud to be Americans, but are we proud of our land? Proud of the connection and "oneness" with our land? Proud of the history and blood we share with our land? A history which is inargueable as perhaps the most rich of histories? Not really. Perhaps as Irish, or English...but then still it's not quite the same "connectedness" with the former.
So she went on to explain how they, or at least the group to which she belongs, view the soil as part of their blood almost. She spoke about how here in America, we are always in such a rush to do this and do that that we have no time for "life." How day's go by, whilst across the world in less favorable "third world" countires, days feel like days...not hours.
She spoke of how our media chooses to spotlight them under the strangest of circumstances for a parent doing this or that and how strange that is... Especially when we have women who murder their own children on a now frequent basis (that one really sunk in) when that is apparently unthinkable there.

To bring it home, this as a big place... Even in the day of the internet and approaching fiber optic speed connceting one side of the world to the other in less than a blink of an eye...it's still a huge world. One where "we" are yet outnumbered. So my main point here is that while we may feel so inclined to question cultures or peoples whose values, or our perceptions of lack of values, may appear to be inferior to ours, we must challenge ourselves to think, not only outside of the box, but outside of our planes to consider the unimagineable. Fore we are being judged by far more...



Make sense? Sorry for the long post. Not how things are, but just my .02

Michael,
this topic needed the long post, which is not that long really according to the number of levels and sides the question might be considered. But this is something MAIN! I tried to say back there that we all been in situations when we were underestimated cos of our differences and yes! of course it's a shame there are people with prejudices.... but that's not the problem!

It's a shame that we try to fix the world.. and FIT IT TO OUR STANDARTS and to the way we think is the right one! I am saying "we" cos i can't put myself out of this... but what i do.. is trying to understand different points of view.. oh i can say it's a training for some time now... may be years... and i believe i am improving better and better... but it ain't easy... cos it seems easier to accept the color or the look of someone but it ain't that easy to accept someones culture.. and what i realized now.. thanks to Michael is that... culture is lil bit more different from "race", "colour of the skin" or "height" and "weight". Culture is when u accept to eat from the hands of an arabian man who offers u the food which is made in his home... u'r squeamish? But u will insult him really bad if u refuse to eat it. I remebered this lecture on social phsychology in the uni.. when we were discussing the "private space"... so... u know that we all have our private space... so to feel comfortable while u talk to someone u need to stand on one hand away from him (example: the elevators where u'r too colse to each other and people usually don't know on which side to turn their heads untill they reach their floor)... so... immagine a japanese, his private space is lil bit wider then ours.. so he will feel comfortable talking to u on more then one hand distance. So u talk to him, u need less private space so u get on one hand.. which is TOO close for him.. so he gets back so that to fit to HIS standarts, but u get closer again cos u feel far from him.. and so it truns into a "play tag". Why? just cos u (or him) doesn't know ur culture and standarts.... again the japanese - so this friend of mine had the opportunity to ask a japanese man while he was having bussiness meeting with him "ok", he asked "u smile and nod to everything i say and propose to u. So do u agree with everything i am offering?" but the japanese said "No! NO! u'r wrong i just smile because i like to hear ur point of view, i respect it, tho i don't agree with it"

I respect ur point of view, but i don't see things like u do!

May be we just need respect, and may be we need to understand that this planet is small, but if u consider every person as a whole universe, then u really need to enlarge ur point of view so that to interact with the views of the others.

I still can't understand some people's acts. I will continue to judge them but i am trying. NO! i am learning to live in peace with whoever comes across my way... but then u will say 'why u keep on trying? just DO it". So yeah, before u judge or CRY for someone cos of his culture and the place he or she is comming from u try to understand the culture... if u want to (of course).

It's like trying to sort the desk of ur colleague at work. It might be messy but i am sure he knows where exactly is everything, and he won't be lost in his "order" tho he will be lost if u try to fix it and make it ur way. Will u tell him "John! i cleaned ur desk. It looks so tidy now" and he will need a day to figure out where u put this or that i assure u... and he will rearage it soon like it was before. But it's his way and it works for him.

So YOU have ur culture as well... WHICH IS?

may be we need to start from here.

... respect... that's the word right there.
I have a sticker on my fridge, that says
All different, All equal.. I need to write
the words "All respect" under that.

(I was travelling home from States, and while
waiting for my connecting flight after 10 hours
(you know what the airplane air conditioning can do to your sinuses).. blew my nose
rather loudly at the lounge making a young Japanese girl jump. People do not blow noses,
or make any other bodily noises publicly in Japan.
I did apologise my manners to her, which started a nice convo with the girl, about my trip to Japan and her trip to Finland, comparing cultures, traditions and good&bad manners.)

A multicultural relationship has nothing to do
with the color of the skin of your partner.
I don't even believe there are different
races of humans... we are all, by the biological
classification, Homo Sapiens... and there are no
sub species of that. When a person comes accross
somebody/thing knew to her /him it can cause fear, prejudice, due to lack of knowledge f.e.
All my relationships have been multicultural,
and so are my three kids (I dislike the word interracial) and personally it has been nothing but a richness. I wish I could say the same about the society around me, but I still have hope. My stepmother told her opion against multicultural relationships, because the society
will treat the children from these unkindly, not knowing that herself, with such a comment, was contributing to that cruel society. I do hope that our kids, with our quiding, will change all that.

Change has to start with the individual. What does it cost to treat someone special, and make them smile? Only love. No... we can't change the whole world, but we can make a difference! Michael, I am sorry that you and Effie were treated differently at the restaurant. It should be restaurant employee policy for all patrons to be treated the same. People get so wound up with differences that they miss the point of life. It is sad really.We are a species of Homo Sapiens and through our blueprints we are bonded to eachother...forget pigment, or culture...we are human beings. Someday, maybe people will realize that being different is kind of cool, and that we can all learn from eachother to survive together in Peace and harmony. Love, Janet

quote:

---

Originally posted by ladysingstheblues:
Change has to start with the individual. What does it cost to treat someone special, and make them smile? Only love. No... we can't change the whole world, but we can make a difference! Michael, I am sorry that you and Effie were treated differently at the restaurant. It should be restaurant employee policy for all patrons to be treated the same. People get so wound up with differences that they miss the point of life. It is sad really.We are a species of Homo Sapiens and through our blueprints we are bonded to eachother...forget pigment, or culture...we are human beings. Someday, maybe people will realize that being different is kind of cool, and that we can all learn from eachother to survive together in Peace and harmony. Love, Janet

---

But Janet
it's not about colour that much, it's about culture. For example - can u be tolerant and can u accept the customs in India, where the society is devided on different casts and where the girl can't marry the one she loves (may be) but the one who her family choose for her? That's culture, and it's a very ancient one... can u say it's savage? U might not like it tho.. u have this right.

Cos for me? I can't say i understand it to the fullest but i started studing it in my own way so that accept it and respect it somehow. How it is in ur case? zAnd as Michael said... can u judge the way people live and act in Africa? Will u say "poor people"?

LadywingZ... no you do not have to accept all.
That's the root of a multicultural relationships, knowing what to accept and what not to. I never accepted circumcision of my kids, even when the father grew up in a culture where it is considered as something to be proud of. I stated my case and opinions in a respective manner, and they were accepted.
It is up to each one of us how much we want to
change the inhumaness of the world, how we do it
is down to our abilities and resources. With time my conscious has tought me that.

Just to set the record straight, I don't know that anyone was referring to Africa, but used that as an example as it's where my girlfriend happens to be from.

Janet, the restaurant must obviously have a an employee policy that all patrons be treated the same. Restaurants aren't bad (in this day) nor are countries, nor religions, nor cultures; it's people who are the direct source of negative stigmas associated with any group.

It's funny that you mention Indian culture and marriage LW. Here's an article I read recently about a missing actress whose parents had arranged her marriage...

-------------
Manchester Online - December 04, 2003
Street star joins murder hunt

Andrew Nott



MISSING: Shafilea Ahmed



CORONATION street star Shobna Gulati was called in to join a murder hunt today.

The actress teamed up with detectives hunting the killer they believe claimed the life of an Asian teenager who turned down her suitor for an arranged marriage.

Police found a set of musical lyrics written by tragic Shafilea Ahmed at her home in Great Sankey, Warrington, which were a testimony to her sadness at being caught in a culture clash with other members of her family.

They included references to her bringing 'shame' on them and wishing she was dead which Shobna read for the benefit of the cameras.

After the reading, which moved the actress to tears, Shobna said she believed they showed that Shafilea was trapped between two cultures.



APPEAL: Shobna Gulati at the press conference


"It can be very difficult if you are born here but your parents were not and there can be a lot of cultural issues", she said.

"It is a situation facing many young Asian women who are unable to express themselves properly within their families.

"I feel these words are the sort of style she would use when talking with her friends.

"If she is out there she should let people know she is safe because there are organisations and individuals who can help her."

Det Chief Insp Geraint Jones said: "Sadly, we believe Shafilea is dead, the victim of crime.

"But if the slim chance that she is alive is true I would ask her please to send us some form of proof of life which will allow us to use our resources elsewhere and help her family move on whether or not she chooses to return home."

Today is the first time I've seen this thread. After reading through some of the posts, it seems that a common view is that it isn't race that separates us but cultures/geography. I belived that to be true but most people here in the US do not really believe that.

I remember being so excited about starting college my freshman year, but then feeling stupid about being so optimistic by graduation. Most of the students and even faculty felt that I was accepted because of a quota, not because of my grades. I even had one "friend" who was shocked that both my brother and mother had cars. She really thought it was amazing that "we" owned more than one car, even though her family did as well. And it was always taken for granted that I was the first to attend and graduate from college in my family!

Vacations for me have been interesting. The first time I went to Myrtle Beach, SC, all the white people got out of the pool when I got in. The second time (why did I go back?) a white mother and her son looked disappointed to see me and my mother in the elavator when the doors openned, and had to literally push her child into the lift with us. While in Aruba this summer, when I passed a man in the hall on my way to my room, and he asked if I cleaned rooms "too". I said "no, I'm a guest here". Then he made a hand motion and repeated himself as if I did not understand English. So I repeated myself even louder the second time while he stood there looking both amazed and confused.

Recently at work I had a co-worker tell me that he could've moved from his neighborhood when the black people started to move in, but he's sticking it out.

It's experiences like these that remind me that for as long as I live, I will always be looked at and treated differently. And just think, I was born AFTER Jim Crow laws were over in the US!

I believe that geography and culture are the only things that divide us, but my everyday life is a different story.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glendamax:
Today is the first time I've seen this thread. After reading through some of the posts, it seems that a common view is that it isn't race that separates us but cultures/geography. I belived that to be true but most people here in the US do not really believe that.

I remember being so excited about starting college my freshman year, but then feeling stupid about being so optimistic by graduation. Most of the students and even faculty felt that I was accepted because of a quota, not because of my grades. I even had one "friend" who was shocked that both my brother and mother had cars. She really thought it was amazing that "we" owned more than one car, even though her family did as well. And it was always taken for granted that I was the first to attend and graduate from college in my family!

Vacations for me have been interesting. The first time I went to Myrtle Beach, SC, all the white people got out of the pool when I got in. The second time (why did I go back?) a white mother and her son looked disappointed to see me and my mother in the elavator when the doors openned, and had to literally push her child into the lift with us. While in Aruba this summer, when I passed a man in the hall on my way to my room, and he asked if I cleaned rooms "too". I said "no, I'm a guest here". Then he made a hand motion and repeated himself as if I did not understand English. So I repeated myself even louder the second time while he stood there looking both amazed and confused.

Recently at work I had a co-worker tell me that he could've moved from his neighborhood when the black people started to move in, but he's sticking it out.

It's experiences like these that remind me that for as long as I live, I will always be looked at and treated differently. And just think, I was born AFTER Jim Crow laws were over in the US!

I believe that geography and culture are the only things that divide us, but my everyday life is a different story.

---

sometimes, I absorb all the negative in this world like a sponge, and I just want to wring it out and throw the sponge away. People can be so insensitive sometimes. I think people are conditioned into believing as they do. It is like saying: because teens have earrings on their eyebrows and a stud in their tongue they are in a gang and should be avoided...hogwash. People use association to justify their actions...Well you never know, better to play it safe...you know that person is___. When will people grow up? People need to look in a mirror and realize that we have the same feelings. Love, Janet

((((((((Glendamax)))))))) longtime no hear!

I read the books, I watch the films, talk to people, and see it in the world news every day and still don't get it. I am not insulted because I have green eyes, so why should you be for your brown skin???

My son Alex was 6 months old
when I was was stepping out of a bus with his pushchair, asked for a man standing in front of me to give me a hand to lift it out of the bus, but instead he turned around and spat on Alex. I went into a shock and could not stand up for my baby. By law, I could have had him arrested. Since then, any insults towards them, I turn into a tiger.

Long time ago, while living in UK, I was watching news with my ex-mother in law. The newsbroadcaster was black, and obviously brittishborn. My ex-mother in law turned to me to say "those bloody foreigners get every where, eh?" ... not realizing there was one sitting on her couch.

... I'm sure I'm hearing John Lennon.. Imagine...sigh!!!

Someone spat on your son? OMG!!! you know, I really don't understand people sometimes. It's this stigma that they put on people that I cannot stand. Who are you to judge other people and even spit on a helpless child (a 6 year old can't defend itself against an "adult")? Like Seal said, "who am I to judge the color of your hair?"...meaning that you shouldn't judge people based on what they LOOK like.

I can seriously imagine you get furious everytime someone makes a comment about your children. I would get pissed off as well. Nobody can judge anyone based on their appearence; but most people do that anyway. Why? That's a question I'd like to have an answer to...and not a silly answer such as "just because..!", no a serious answer. I bet if you ask this to someone random on the street, that they will give you either 1) a dumb response 2) don't respond at all.

Just know Viivi that you are above this all

Tom, many thanks for your concern.
Alex was six months old when this happened, and
he is ten years now, many other discusting incidents fit into this timeframe. And sadly,
when they happen, I do need to sink to "their" level, just to get my message accross (language
I refuse to show here). The most upsetting thing about this is that the kids are present and hear my responses, but then again.. they need to know that someone is sticking up for them, but always staying within legal limits,
no sign language (hitting, spitting etc.) as those in my opinion are signs of running out of words aka stupidity. I have always tried to explain to my kids why people behave that way, or why I have to be so strong in trying to stop them... man, it ain't easy. One good message they, and other kids I come accross, have learned .. the N word is a stupid adult word, that some kids pick up, but really smart kids like you leave it alone.

Spitting on someone is vulgar and degrading. I am sorry this happened to your child. You know, children are a blessing from God. The man that spit on your child was without a blessing, and he missed out by being cruel. People can not be happy treating others in such a manner. "Not everyone looks into a kaleidoscope and sees the colors of the world the same way...too bad really, because the swirl is beautiful" Love and hugs to you and your kids, Janet

Skin is all made of the same matter, blood is blood, teeth... the same... bones... the same.
I get a charge out of people who think different hues make us different. It is what is in our heads that divide us..those who are good...and those who are wrong!

My husband is from the West Indies and I am American. Interesting enough...his mom always wanted him to marry a white woman...go figure!

Thank you Janet!

Delfine, I am so sorry these things happened to you and your child. The Dalai Lama helps me sometimes to see that the people doing the wrong should have our compassion because they are really screwing up their karma! He says, "don't hate the Chinese". Even though the Chinese are trying to wipe out the Tibetan culture, here is a Tibetan having compassion for them because what they are doing is creating very bad karma for themselves. That is a very hard thing to do: have compassion for those that wrong you. Maybe that is what "turn the other cheek" means. Very difficult though. As I said before, I admire all of you that have had bad situations with ignorant people. Bless you for your courage and strength. Maybe someday we will have a future love paradise.

Now that is so cruel,how could someone just spit on a 6month old...its insanity,sorry about that delfine...I get so amazed that people still tend to hate the other color of themselves;in this present civilization,dont they get it???I for one whenever I see white colored people,im so happy cos Its like getting to see myself in another respect...

Hate is a strong word I try not to use towards
anyone. Things like this makes it hard, but hating a person doing that will not make a change, he will not know about it, or if he did he doesn't care... in other words, wasted energy.
Thank you all for your concerns, my pod.

Multi-cultural relationship was such a rich union for me, if the others around me does not see that, it's not my problem and I do my best not to make a problem for my kids. To date I seem to be doing well with that. When it comes down to loving & living together, sharing a life, parenthood, work, bills to pay and so on... no matter where you come from, we all hurt, laugh, cry and tickle, just as they do next door. Saddest thing is, as long as people differ, rasicm & prejudice will always exist.
We can however, do our best to chip off some of it, and learn how to deal with it, without hating.

Dearest Michael, Dearest Friends,

What a deep thought provoking subject you brought up for discussion here. I have been reading with great interest.

Conflicts are abound in this world of ours.
You know I am of Indian origin, and in my country, from the part I come from, I have grown up seeing peole around me always looking down on dark skinned people. My own mother, who is beautiful, of a deep brown shade, was all the time compared with the wife of my father's brother, who was very fair skinned. So cruel her in-laws were to her. This is one offensive problem we have in the society I grew up in.

As a little girl, I was considered the ugly duckling because I was fat with long hair upto my waist which was always oiled and braided with big ribbons. And this ugly duckling was always compared to the swan of the family, my slender cousin sister who had brown hair with hazel green eyes and was professed to look like Lady Di.

As I became of marrigable age, all of a sudden, the "caste system" became an issue. because I am of a Brahmin family, my family was convinced I should marry one. All the others, were "no good" for their daughter.

When we were in Japan, I could not teach English, no matter how good I am, because I was not white and English is not considered my "native language". I could not sing jazz, because I was not black. And my son was treated very badly by the Japanese Children and some adults, because he looked and acted different from the Japanese children.

And there are so many other examples that I can give. The list goes on and on. I always seem to be the wrong person, at the wrong place and time. Oh well...

This thread that is being discussed here is truly a global problem/issue and I agree completely with all of you. And all of this stems from I feel, lack of respect and ignorance, which breeds fear. If it is not color and race, it is cultural, if not cultural, it is religious, if not religious it is political, I mean, we humanbeings seem to be going round in circles here with no solution.

Love, Truth and Respect, always sets one free, I feel. You are all right. Once a great master said, if we can peel our skins of whatever color off, we'll find that we are all red! And that makes us all equal.

I love color, it is what makes us so beautiful, all beautiful fragrant flowers indeed in the same garden. I love all cultures, And if we really go a little deeper, all of us in all countries, despite the diversity, there is a common thread of unity there.

We are just too brain washed to see only the differences and not the similarities.

Ultimately, it matters not. Everytime, I am asked to fill out a form, there it is, "What race?" Amazing. And they have a list of names of "races" from which I am supposed to check one.

So I simply write, "The Human Race!". To me that is the only one on this Planet. Home? Mother Earth.

I am waiting for that day, when I don't have to stand in long lines at the Immigration to get into a country, where glum looking, hard eyed, uniformed humans are checking my passport, looking me up and down, making sure I am not an alien from another Planet. Even if I were, so what? I am tired of worrying that all my papers are in order. I want to throw my passport away and just feel free to go anywhere I like and set up a home anywhere I like, with whoever I like, etc, etc. I long for that day when we can all live and love together in harmony, sharing.

Oh and it would be wonderful if I could manifest mangos out of thin air and not have to worry about a piece of paper called "money"!

We used to, be able to do that millions of years ago you know. Then something went wrong with us and here we are, all blind-folded and miserably forgetful of our true Selves within.

I am so proud of all of you who went with your hearts and did not allow petty social belief systems to come in betwwen you and your loves.

Speaking for myself here, just because I chose a little piece of the earth's corner called India, to be born in, to Indian Hindu earth parents, makes me nothing. I simply am. The more I find out about myself, the more I break free of imposed patterns and belief systems of our earth society.

In the same way, you are simply you. We all are simply us. Would you agree? The more we see ourselves for the Truth we truly are, the more the differences between all of us diminishes.

Love, compassion, understanding, a genuine desire to know each others worlds and learn from it, integration and respect for each other are all key to a harmonious world.

You know, we all come from the Stars and each of us are a gorgeous, unique, absolutely wonderous and beautiful work of art, painted so lovingly by Source/God.

We are multidimensional Beings, so we are all and everything at once, that we see in the other.

I love you all.

Hugs and joy to you,

Piyali

I love you too Piyali Janet