Fast your wisdom never ceases to fascinate me you made some great points here. Thnks for sharing this enlightening insight! Look forward to meeting you in NYC!

Great input everyone. Many of you are engaged in multi-cultural relationships, as am I. What are your thoughts on those in these relations criticizing the culture to which they belong? Does their being romantically involved with an "outsider" require that they forfeit their rights to address faults within their culture? Further, when doing so, is it out of love, self hatred, or both?

Michael , that is a loaded question ! Well we can all critize the culture we come from because we are part of it it's part of us and that in itself gives us reason to critize what ticks us off in what ever that culture may be. Being with an outsider does not forfeit anyones rights , even though at times you are made to feel excluded from said culture.
I have friend who is the same cultural background as me and has mentioned that she preferrs that her and her husband socialize exclusively with only other couples that are both of this background! That was my reaction . Even though she was not referring to me she says we are the exception. So yeah I critize this behaviour in my culture . Love or self hatred umm.. Fast had some good thoughts on that . The individual should be what one focuses on I assume the qualities of the culture that are being critized are not practised by this person so no self hatred there. But I've used this arguement recently in our Church and people of my cultural group were behaving in a horrible way towards the new priest , I for one said that their actions made me ashamed to be part of that group and said I could critize cuz I was one of them. Does any of this make sense? Oh well .

I think when you get involved in a relationship with someone from another culture, you can't help but see your own culture differently as you learn about theirs. In a love relationship, you are learning on a deeper level than you would from any other way. Learning from someone elses heart makes you look at your own and begin to compare things and question others. I think it is a natural process that comes with the blending of two people who were raised in different worlds. In time I believe your "view of the world", including your own culture, tends to balance out and you wind up with a higher understanding of things you may not have even looked at before. Being with a person from a different culture opens your eyes in a new way and it can be a very beautiful experience.
I also think that some of our "own-culture critizisms" may be born out of the negative reactions of those around us to our multi-racial/cultural realtionships.
You can't grow without growing pains, right?

My husband and I are both white, but we come from different backgrounds. My family was pretty much an open book. We discussed things good and bad. My husband's family did'nt discuss "private" things. So things not religiously accepted were kept hidden, or not talked about. I had a hard time adjusting to it when I was younger. I felt that if I wanted to drink a beer, why hide it from people? I have adjusted to it now. I just have accepted that some things I can't change, and I make the best of awkward moments when dealing with in-laws. My husband finally realized one day that I was the reason that they didn't come around much after literally years of denial. Let me tell you reality hurts sometimes. But in the long run, I would rather live my life as I choose, and love whom I choose to love. My door is always open to them. Love, Janet

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This was quite a long and thoughful thread that I just read, wow, the first thing that came to my mind when I started to read this topic was " I don't think in colour, I feel in emotions " and whilst reading that feeling kept coming back to me. I know a lot of different people from all places with all different colours and believes. Some of them are from a country thats at war (black and white) scared and emotionally traumatised but I love them. Some of them are rich, some of them poor, some of them grew up happy, some of them didn't, some of them grew up here in Holland, all with different backgrounds, with different cultures, with different lives, but I love them for whom they are, for whom they became.... and I respect there past as i hope they respect mine and love me for whom I am and have become..

Love,

Ellebel

Love should have no boundaries or conditions placed on it..... I find it sad that still in todays world that mixed 'relationships' R viewed as bad and untolerated by some folks...

Regardless of race, religion and/or different cultures, I belive the greatest gift we can give to those we 'love' is to just let them love--whomever it is that makes their heart race and soul sing--- it can only perpetuate those warm fuzzy feelings that are so essential for a happy soul..... and that could only B a good thing..... and U R right Elle ..... love doesn't have a color... and so it shouldn't either....

.............Mystery

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Originally posted by maxbrat452:
I think when you get involved in a relationship with someone from another culture, you can't help but see your own culture differently as you learn about theirs. In a love relationship, you are learning on a deeper level than you would from any other way. Learning from someone elses heart makes you look at your own and begin to compare things and question others. I think it is a natural process that comes with the blending of two people who were raised in different worlds. In time I believe your "view of the world", including your own culture, tends to balance out and you wind up with a higher understanding of things you may not have even looked at before. Being with a person from a different culture opens your eyes in a new way and it can be a very beautiful experience.
I also think that some of our "own-culture critizisms" may be born out of the negative reactions of those around us to our multi-racial/cultural realtionships.
You can't grow without growing pains, right?

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Wow. VERY well stated. I'd like to add to this, but haven't anything to enhance these observations.

This is exactly what I feel when looking back on my relationship with my girlfriend. When we met, I was this hotshot city guy flipping real estate in Chicago. She'd never feel comfortable when going out for drinks and getting involved in the scene. I questioned and faulted her lack of excitement... How could she feel so out of place when she was already so hip and beautiful? Now, I reside in northern California and "opt out" of pretty much any city scene party I can find an excuse for...

There is, however, a downside to this growth and wisdom gained. She is now looked on as a lost raving wildchild for 1. moving out of her home before marriage 2. having an occassional drink 3. listening to non-Christian music 4. dating a man outside of her immediate community.

These abnormalties coupled with her increasing tendency to question why it is that her brother is favored in any disagreement, why she should be the one to remain in the kitchen and serve, and why she should sacrifice all the she considers solid for the good of any others has positioned her as an outsider.

There is no turning back. She, along with myself, sometimes wonders if she'd do it over again. And by this, I do not mean simply step outside of one's color defined culture. We are talking differences of night and day; some of you here understand the differences to which I speak of...

Sometimes what's right is not right, but wrong for her which is especially unsoothing whilst living on "foreign" soil. So who becomes right when you both disagree, yet both are truly right? Americans obviously feel that they should be right by default, but it is through these relationships and challenges (for which you have never been prepared) that seperates us from the common set of inhabitants on this planet.

Wow, I could talk forever about this specifically. When we met, my gf would always tell me that I didn't understand. So often... I now see what she referred to... She is what is "commonly" referred to as a "Third Culture Kid." Born to Ethiopian soil, moving immediately to Kenya, assimilating into that societies culture while still being sensative to her parents mother culture of Ethiopia, being schooled in private American then British schools, and then passing on a professional soccer career (I know, I'm bragging!) to move to the states immediately after high school to enter American university.

I, on the other hand, was raised in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, as an all american. Played little league in Rural Hall, soccer in East Winston, and camped at Raven Knob as a boy scout. Never stopped to consider what others were doing around the globe as I was doing these things...why would I?

Our perceptions of self and where we fit in are based on such limited perspectives of the world. Forutnately, the internet is steadily fighting to make the world one large community, though its obviously apparent that some wish to hold onto yesterday.

Naturally she must have found humor in the society which I attempted to expose her to... Perhaps this is why I've adopted such views on multi-cultural relationships, but it just seems that about any relationship one can become a part of is exactly that to an extent. Further, given the circumstances of my union with my girlfriend, and the fact that these sorts of relationships are increasingly more common, how can some of us choose to withold validation from a loving relationship when color may be the only cultural difference?

It could only be a product of ignorance and lack of diversity that moves one to hold such a set of principles as "the truth."
I'll wrap this up abruptly here...

Anyone a third culture kid?

Hugs to you and Effie, Michael. I understand where you are both coming from. I was sheltered growing up, but when my husband and I were planning our wedding my father went on a binge and made life miserable so I left home before marriage, and moved into our home early. It is not easy to make changes in your life, but you can't let other's live your life for you. Just like you can not please everyone. Michael, you and Effie can learn from your different backgrounds, and keep what will help you both to grow in the future. Love, Janet

I've been in relationships which were muli-cultural. Where the only problem they saw in me and my "American" ways was that I was too out-spoken and assertive. They were never problems with our parents or friends. I guess I was lucky in that sense.

My boyfriend is from Ghana and we find something new about each other cultures almost everyday. The only real disagreement we had was when I was pregnant, I already had a name for the baby, his tradition is to name the child the day in which they were born. We went back and forth with this for five months. bringing our family and friends into it... of course I won and compromise letting the traditional name be her middle name.

My cultural clashes came with my friendships growing up. I lived in an area in Brooklyn that was mostly people from the south or spanish. When we move to Flatbush it was a whole new world to me. I didn't know of all the countries in the West Indies so everything was new. I made friends but some of my friends' parents didn't like me because I was a "Yankee". To them being an american meant I was a bad influence. If my friends did something wrong it was because of me that they rebel even if I was not there when it happen. Our friendships strained and ended due to other things, but the indiffence their parents felt didn't help ... Well I still live in the same corner house and have the same neighbors and it is so funny how the parents react to me now. They can't even keep their heads up sometime when they see me, why, because their kids are either in jail, abused drugs or alcohol, or just been through hard-times. My life ain't perfect, but they never heard anything bad about me from the neighborhod gossip either.

Wow! I have so much to say on this, I'm not even sure where to begin. I just sat here for the last 25 or so minutes reading everyones posts and absorbing everything everyone has been saying.

I will begin with saying what I said in my first post on this topic as well as add a little. . . . . Love has no boundaries, no conditions, and no strings attached, or at least it shouldn't anyway. I just feel like sharing a bit of my experiences with all of you, hope you don't mind. It's going to be a bit long, fair warning....lol. Since we are talking about cultures as well here. . .

My husband and I are both white, Janet's story reminds me of mine in a lot of ways. He was raised completely different than I was. His mom can't stand me. Reason why is simple, yet it hurts, here it is: I am not blonde, 5'10" or 145 lbs, so therefore according to her, I'm not good enough of a wife for him. We have prejudices within our own family and it really sucks. I can't help that she has these prejudices towards me, but I am not going to let anyone tell me who I can or cannot love or how to live my life. I do pray for her and people like her that judge others based on looks and skin tones. His mom really wants nothing to do with her own son now just because I am married to him. She refuses to even take the time to get to know the person inside of me, but that's ok....like Janet, my door is always open to her. . .

I have friends of all different races and backgrounds, all different colours and sizes, some are rich and some are barely surviving, some of us have lived tragedy after tragedy, some have been physically and emotionally scarred. . .yet we are all humans and I love each and every one of them simply for the person I have come to know, and I respect and love them all regardless of race, religion, background, looks, etc. . .it would suck if we were all the same.

I know for a fact that when I get to know others of a different culture that I too can't help but see my own culture differently. I totally agree with Max on everything she said.

My best and most dearest friend is part African, Hawaiian, and Carribean. He has two beautiful daughters. We have known each other for almost 3 years. When we met, it didn't even occur to me that he was a different skin tone than I was or that we obviously came from two completely different cultures, we met because we have a common bond in somethings, we were both hurting and needed a friend, so we reached out to each other. He knows my heart and I have come to know and love his. When we are out together we have encountered a lot of racist and prejudiced comments, sneers and the like. He has even had other guys come up to him and tell him he needs to be with his own kind...we just have to laugh, we ARE with our own kind, we are both human, aren't we?? Me and my husband, and Mike (my best friend) and his ex would all go out along with Mike's daughters to dinner or whatever together and people would just stare. And isn't it funny that Mike's mom adores me because I'm good with her granddaughters and she says I'm easy to talk to and get along with, and am sweet when my own husbands mom wont even try to like me??

Love doesn't have a color, a weight a certain hair style, or an eye color preference, Love doesn't pass judgement of any kind. Being with a person who is different than you; weather it's color, size, religion, background or what have you, it opens your eyes, heart, and soul up to a new way of seeing things and feeling things and a whole new light and understanding is shed upon your soul....it can be and is a most beautiful experience.

Thank you Sue and Nadine for sharing what you did about us being flowers in the same garden, it is so so true. and to Nadine for sharing your words and poem....and to everyone for sharing your words and experiences....it feels so good to be here, I really feel connected to everyone I have run across so far and am blessed to be getting the chance to get to know each and every one of you.....

~Karen

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Originally posted by Michael:
It could only be a product of ignorance and lack of diversity that moves one to hold such a set of principles as "the truth."

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Michael, your comment above, "lack of diversity" is so true. In most small towns across this country of ours, that is a huge problem.

I am SO thankful I had a mother who was extremely liberal. In our little white-bread town, there were three black families. We knew them all. My mother taught Special Educ. at an all-black school in Akron. I remember when I was about 9 years old, she signed us up for "Friendly Town"....hosting two inner-city Cleveland girls for a week. I remember before they arrived, looking at a form that said they were both black. It freaked me out a little at the time, but man oh man, when they were with us, we had a BLAST together! I was sad to see them go. I'll never forget taking them home and seeing their run-down neighborhood. It taught me at a young age to appreciate all the material things we had (although with 7 kids and my dad making a small salary, we were far from rich).

Funny thing is, my In-Laws are bigoted to this day, but their son--my husband--is as open minded as one can be. His sister moved to Philadelphia because as she put it, "all they know is this town of all white people, they need to experience more of the real world".

So.... I guess it is possible to overcome your local culture!

Went to observe some Tibetan Monks construct a Mandala this past Sunday, and was purchasing some incense when I caught this one Monk smiling at me; I asked him well which one do you like best (there were several kinds of incense to purchase).

He laughed and said I like them all. I asked again oh you don't have a favorite, he said no not really I use them all well.

I understood his answer.
Can apply to many many concepts.

I am impressed by all the stories told here and it’s kinda relieving to hear that others made the same experiences as my boyfriend and I do these days.
I think the ignorance of others is nothing that should affect our relationship at all, others shouldn’t and won’t ever be able to destroy our relationship, they’ll never be able to dash the love we have for eachother.
We come from in some ways very different cultures but it only helps us seeing the world with other eyes. We also have a lot of fun learning eachothers language (he already knows german but I dont know much french). We can learn a lot about eachothers culture and I love it to listen him telling about his childhood and the way he lived. As I learn more about his culture I can find some things in 'my' culture that aren't as good as they first seemed to be. I think all people should be more interested in other cultures, the more people know about ‘the others’ the less prejudices they have and.. it’s never too late to give up our prejudices!!
People shouldn’t adjust and estimate other cultures as long as they don’t know better about them.
We love eachother and we will never let others destroy our love with their prejudices about his colour and our relationship at all.
Love has no boundaries and together we are strong.
Love is far more various than race, because it goes much deeper than a person's skin.. it goes to the heart. I think what matters is the will to stay together not the race.. the choice to love what lies beneath the skin. Love is the choice to embrace one soul. Love will never leave the world the same and it will never leave our life the same.
It's, as f_t_l said, sad that there are still such prejudices in this world today and I hope that one day all mixed couples will be able to live without them.

A lot of LOVE and PEACE

Nadine.

"Love's a stream that knows no borders,
Passports, visas, lengths of stay,
Laws and papers, rules and orders:
All these lies it sweeps away.
Love knows no color, race, or creed,
Spilling over states at will,
Submerging memory in need,
Drowning walls in waters still.

No bar can block it as it flows,
Tumbling towards eternity,
Gathering wisdom as it goes,
Yearning for our common sea."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: n-a-d,

quote:

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Originally posted by fast changes:
Went to observe some Tibetan Monks construct a Mandala this past Sunday, and was purchasing some incense when I caught this one Monk smiling at me; I asked him well which one do you like best (there were several kinds of incense to purchase).

He laughed and said I like them all. I asked again oh you don't have a favorite, he said no not really I use them all well.

I understood his answer.
Can apply to many many concepts.

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The monk is a wise man Love, and did you buy one of each? Janet

Good question Janet!

No just one...

i don't know what to say really... i am staring this post .. and then deleting what i've wrote... don't know... i am just afraid of what people will say, what my family will say, my friends? they r the only one who understand me! i want to slap the society, shout at them that it's my only freedome to fight for my happiness and that if i feel happy with this person them what they care... what i care? give me the formula of how not to pay attention .. of how not to care... is there such? a pill? sunglasses? declaration? ANYTHING! i just wanna stop being afraid of people's reactions.

thankyou for sharing all your views on this subject i have really learned alot of interesting perpestives anbd views that have opened my mind to to a few things i really never even thought of until now i had a realationship simalar to some of yours and i really wish i was more mature and confident in myself to realize its not a color or race issue its a love issue ,you need to love your self and all you are before you embark on ANY REALTIONSHIP ultimately it endedbecause he lacked understanding of this concept that its all about love not
"something different " peolpe are are people!!love Marci

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Originally posted by LadyWingZ:
i don't know what to say really... i am staring this post .. and then deleting what i've wrote... don't know... i am just afraid of what people will say, what my family will say, my friends? they r the only one who understand me! i want to slap the society, shout at them that it's my only freedome to fight for my happiness and that if i feel happy with this person them what they care... what i care? give me the formula of how not to pay attention .. of how not to care... is there such? a pill? sunglasses? declaration? ANYTHING! i just wanna stop being afraid of people's reactions.

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Wow, can you say a bit more? I think you really know what I'm talking about. You're fear of what others will say sounds exactly like my girlfriend.

Please share. I think it's important that you do so...

well.. basicaly i've always been in relationships with people from another race. somehow it keeps my balance. i haven't been in love every time... may be once.. and since i am saying "may be" then i think it wasn't love exactly. but i am now. and am ready to go through whatever so that to be with him. i know he does the same. first of all...he is there i am here - long distance, second thing - different race. oh u know how the family is. it's like they r picking ur partner, like it's them who gonna get married.. and more over. they r ashamed of ur choice cos "WHAT PEOPLE WILL THINK OF OUR FAMILY IF U MARRY HIM". I am blessed in one thing tho in this situation - friends who r always behind me and my choices. And my friend Milena is always in front of my eyes. She fighted 3 years against her family, against HIS family (he is indian) and against her own friends... u know what? this feels like a hurdle-race: u run to him. then a friend stands in front of u and sais "he is a different culture, give up", but u pass... u run further, then ur dad stands in front of u and sais "i am ashamed of u"... u'r passing by... then people stand in front of u and say "what's wrong with men from ur own country that u pick from a different one?" but u know it's getting harder and sometimes u r getting tired... one thing can't stop me tho.. cos i know i need him... and he needs me... and cos i've seen it working.. if she did it.. i can do it too, right? So he is black, from the States. My mom was turkish, my dad is bulgarian - mix between two races who hate each other here.

Michael, i don't know how can i help u in this... u know what's funny? that i haven't faced the battle yet but am frightened cos i know how it will be... may be cos i know how i've been feeling on the streets before.. u know it's not very relaxing when everyone look at u and the one next to u... how u say "i don't care" in such situation. But u know one thing? People or society are getting used to everything - give them a news and they will make it a cold statistic in a week, no emotions. So i know they will get used to the view. U can hide in the big city, people don't pay attention there, but in a small town or a country that has not much couples of different cultures it can be a problem, cos u got to fight for passing by without a strange look from everyone...

but my fears i won't pass on him.. may be he is afraid of the same thing as well... i am just sad sometimes... in fact i am sad often, when i see irony, laughter, blame and even anger in peoples eyes... it's agression... so how can u not care about the agression... don't know (yet)... but for sure i will be sharing how it goes in my case.

"we r different cultures so i will be teaching about urs and u will be teaching what's important in mine" that's what he was telling me - that's a bridge, a shared view, even universe,ur sight becomes larger. I invented one weapon tho. When someone laughs at mychoice i laugh back, saying it's oldfashioned to be a racist and that it's time to live in the 21st century cos even the law is behind the tolerance. I'm still waiting for a fight back on that one...